"The Origin of Quran. Its transmission, compilation, corruption/preservation and current status". 

A COMPREHENSIVE WRTITTEN DEBATE BETWEEN THREE ATHEISTS, A CHRISTIAN AND THREE MUSLIMS.

The debate will be hosted jointly by Exploring Faiths Organization (THIS BLOG) and the group "Religion, philosophy, let us talk about it" (http://www.facebook.com/groups/181024738596591/) and Islamic Perimeter (www.islamicperimeter.com). The debate will be published onhttp://www.exploringfo.blogspot.com and in the group mentioned above and also on the website http;//www.islamicperimeter.com

Mr. Kurien Varghese: A believer and a Christian. He is also a strong critique of Islam. In the current debate his participation is momentous, as he strongly suggests that it is the Qura’nic verses that are the root of all evil.


MR KUREIN VARGHESE'S REBUTTAL

I will present my Response through Islamic scholars own record/words and let the readers decide it, If they reject it or not if the muslims dont agree to these scholars they have to reject Muhamad & his quran also becoz these are the scholar who prove muhamad to be a prophet of islam-
1. No text had been compiled during M uhammad’s time. This is further solidified by the following traditions:
2. A great majority of the Qur'anic reciters had been killed at al-Yamama, forever taking with them portions of the Qur'an that only they knew.
3. Zaid Bin Thabit collected the Qur'an from palm leaves, stones and from the memories of men.


1- The first issue that needs to be addressed is the claim that a complete Qur'anic Codex existed during the time of M uhammad. This claim finds no support, since the first complete text was compiled during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (WHERE A GREAT NUMBER OF QURRA' WERE KILLED).
'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me AND SAID, THE PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED HEAVY CASUALTIES ON THE DAY OF (THE BATTLE OF) YAMAMA, AND I AM AFRAID THAT THERE WILL BE MORE CASUALTIES AMONG THE QURRA' (THOSE WHO KNOW THE QUR'AN BY HEART) AT OTHER BATTLE-FIELDS, WHEREBY A LARGE PART OF THE QUR'AN MAY BE LOST, UNLESS YOU COLLECT IT. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'HOW CAN I DO SOMETHING WHICH ALLAH’S APOSTLE HAS NOT DONE?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.'
So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " BY ALLAH, IF HE (ABU BAKR) HAD ORDERED ME TO SHIFT ONE OF THE MOUNTAINS (FROM ITS PLACE) IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HARDER FOR ME THAN WHAT HE HAD ORDERED ME CONCERNING THE COLLECTION OF THE QUR'AN. I said to both of them, "HOW DARE YOU DO A THING WHICH THE PROPHET HAS NOT DONE?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba WHICH I HAD NOT FOUND WITH ANYONE ELSE, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (M uhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly
guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar'sdaughter. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201)
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The number of memorizers that died was 450:
“During the battle of Yamama, 450 reciters of the Qur'an were killed.” (The True Guidance, An Introduction To Qur'anic Studies, part 4 [Light of Life - P.O. BOX 13, A-9503 Villach, Austria], p. 47- citing Ibn Kathir’s Al- Bidaya wa al-Nibaya, chapter on Battle of Yamama)
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2-
According to another source, when these men died they took with them portions of the Qur'an that they alone had memorized:
Zuhri reports, 'We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but THAT THOSE WHO HAD MEMORISED THEM FELL IN THE YEMAMA FIGHTING. THOSE PASSAGES HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN DOWN, AND FOLLOWING THE DEATHS OF THOSE WHO KNEW THEM, WERE NO LONGER KNOWN; NOR HAD ABU BAKR, NOR `UMAR NOR `UTHMAN AS YET COLLECTED THE TEXTS OF THE QUR'AN. (Burton: The published text ought here to be amended: for "fa lamma jama`a Abu Bakr", I propose to read: "wa lamma yajma` Abu Bakr", to follow: "lam yuktab".) THOSE LOST PASSAGES WERE NOT TO BE FOUND WITH ANYONE AFTER THE DEATHS OF THOSE WHO HAD MEMORISED THEM. THIS, I UNDERSTAND, WAS ONE OF THE CONSIDERATIONS WHICH IMPELLED THEM TO PURSUE THE QUR'AN DURING THE REIGN OF ABU BAKR, committing it to sheets for fear that there should perish in further theatres of war men who bore much of the Qur'an which they would take to the grave with them on their fall, and which, with their passing, would not be found with any other. (John Burton, The Collection of the Qur'an, pp. 126-127, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, Kitab al-M asahif’, ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 23;)

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3-
Another tradition states that Abu Bakr wasn’t the first to collect the Qur'an:
It is reported… from Ibn Buraidah who said: "The first of those to collect the Qur'an into a mushaf (codex) was SALIM, THE FREED SLAVE OF ABU HUDHAIFAH". (Ibid., citing as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p. 135)

Interestingly, Salim is one of the four men that M uhammad recommended learning the Qur'an from:
Narrated M asriq: Abdullah bin ‘Amr mentioned ‘Abdullah bin M asud and said, “I shall ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, ‘Take (learn) the Qur'an from four: 'Abdullah bin M asud, Salim, M u'adh and Ubai bin Ka'b.’” (Sahih Al- Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 521)
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4
Zaid was not the only person who had compiled the Qur'an in book form. Others such as Ubayy Bin Kab and Ibn M asud also compiled Qur'ans of their very own. In fact, both Ubayy and M asud had been singled out by M uhammad himself as two of the top four Qur'anic reciters:
M asruq reported: We used to go to Abdullah Bin Amr and talk to him. Ibn Numair said: One day we made a mention of Abdullah Bin M asud, whereupon he said: you have made mention of a person whom I love more than anything else. I heard Allah’s M essenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Learn Qur'an from four persons: Ibn Umm Abd (i.e., Abdullah Bin M asud - he started from him - then M uadh bin Jabal and Ubayy bin Kab, then Salim the ally of Ali Hudhaifa. (Sahih Muslim, Number 6024)
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5-
Another tradition confirms that besides M asud, Kab and Thabit, there were at least two others who had also
collected the Qur'an:
Anas is reported to have said: Four persons collected the Qur'an during the lifetime of Allah’s M essenger (may peace be upon him) and all of them were Ansar: M uadh Bin Jabal, Ubayy Bin Kab, Zaid Bin Thabit, Abu Zaid. Qatada said: Anas, who was Abu Zaid? He said: He was one of my uncles. (Sahih Muslim, Number 6029)
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6-
Hudhaifa figures in a second Hadith series which reports textual differences, not only between Iraq and Syria, but also between rival groups of Iraqis.
We were sitting in the mosque and `Abdullah was reciting the Qur'an when Hudaifa came in and said, 'The reading of ibn Umm `Abd! [ie. `Abdullah] 'THE READING OF IBN UMM `ABD! [IE. `ABDULLAH] THE READING OF ABU MUSA! BY GOD! IF I AM SPARED TO REACH THE COMMANDER OF THE FAITHFUL, I WILL RECOMMEND THAT HE IMPOSE A SINGLE QUR’AN READING!'!' ‘Abdullah became very angry and spoke sharply to Hudaifa who fell silent. (Burton, p. 142, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al M asahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 13)
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7-Ibn Abi Dawud in Kitab al-Masahif, p. 23 wrote,
Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama....but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.
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8-
According to one report by the son of the second caliph Umar given by Suyuti in his al-Itqan part 3, page 72, the present text of the Quran is incomplete since much of it has disappeared:
Abdullah b. Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." How does he know what all of it is? Much of the Quran has lost [arabic: Dhahab also used in this hadith]. Let him say instead, " I have got what has survived."
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9-
Both Kabb and M asud were respected for their ability to memorize, with Kabb being referred to as “the M aster of
the Qur'anic Reciters” and M asud reciting 70 surahs without error:
Abdullah (bin M asud) reported that (he said to his companions to conceal their copies of the Qur'an) and further said: He who conceals anything shall have to bring that which he had concealed on the Day of Judgment, and they said: After whose mode of recitation do you command me to recite? I in fact recited before Allah’s M essenger (may peace be upon him) more than seventy chapters of the Qur'an and the companions of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) know that I have better understanding of the Book of Allah (than they do), and if I were to know that someone had better understanding than I, I would have gone to him. Shaqiq said: I sat in the company of the companions of M uhammad (may peace be upon him) but I did not hear anyone having rejected that (that is, his recitation) or finding fault with it. (Sahih Muslim, Number 6022)
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10
When informed that Zaid’s text was to receive official status, M asud reacted indifferently:
Abdullah Ibn M asud said, “I recited from the M essenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid Ibn Thabit had embraced Islam.” (Gilchrist, p. 66- citing Ibn Abi Dawud’s Kitab al-Masahif, p.17)
“I acquired directly from the M essenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the M essenger of Allah?” (Ibid., p.15)
M asud during a religious sermon (khutba) declared: “THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF DECEIT IN THE READING OF THE QUR'AN. I like it to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides whom there is no god! I LEARNT MORE THAN SEVENTY SURAHS FROM THE LIPS OF THE APOSTLE OF ALLAH, MAY ALLAH BLESS HIM, WHILE ZAYD IBN THABIT WAS A YOUTH, having two locks and playing with the youth. Then he said: By Him besides Whom there is no other god! IF I KNOW ANY ONE TO BE MORE CONVERSANT WITH THE BOOK OF ALLAH THAN ME, AND IF THE CAMELS COULD CARRY ME TO HIM, I SHALL SURELY GO TO HIM. Then ‘Abd Allah went away. Shaqiq said: Subsequently I sat in the circles of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and others BUT NONE CONTRADICTED HIS STATEMENT.” (Ibn Sa’d’s Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, volume 2, p. 444, English translation by S. M oinul Haq, M .A., PH.D assisted by H.K. Ghazanfar M .A. [Kitab Bhavan Exporters & Importers, 1784 Kalan M ahal, Daryaganj, New Delhi- 110 002 India

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IT BECOMES OBVIOUS FROM THESE TRADITIONS THAT CONTRARY TO POPULAR ISLAMIC TEACHING, CONTRADICTIONS AND VARIANT READINGS EXISTED BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT TEXTS. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THESE VARIANCES GAVE RISE TO CHARGES OF CORRUPTION AND TEXTUAL PERVERSION AMONGST THE MUSLIM UMMA, CAUSING UTHMAN TO BURN TEXTS WRITTEN BY EYE AND EAR WITNESSES OF MUHAMMAD.
FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY QURAN SHOULD BE BANNED WORLD WIDE BECOZ IT’S THE SOURCE WHICH MAKE MUSLIMS VIOLENT & LUNATIC.
If Quran is not Banned & allowed to practice, The result for which will be devastating there will be large war between humans worldwide, one lunatic group(Muslims) which believes to kill everybody who is not a muslim taking the world back to a desert war lord, lunatic idiot.
No freedom of speech, No equality, No democracy, No freedom of dress for women, Freedom of worship, No animal rights, Human rights, Women rights, Child rape in mass number, legalizing Prostitution/Mutha, Beheading of apostates & Gays/ homosexuals being guled in ass, No advanced education,No medicine except camel urine, No TV, No music, Bar, Disco, With Bearded baboons in street killing people who question their barbaric acts & shouting allah(: bar.
SO THE WISER PEOPLE SHOULD THINK IS IT A RELIGION OR A POLITICAL SYSTEM & ACT WHILE WE HAVE FREEDOM TO PROTECT OURSELF.
99% OF WHOLE PROBLEM IN THE WORLD IS CAUSED BY MUSLIMS= ISLAM.

A brief summary of my findings

Two fallacies need to be addressed.
1. The claim that memorization preserved the Qur'an is false due to the fact that a great number of the reciters
(hafiz) were slain at the battle of al-Yamama, taking those parts of the Qur'an that they alone had memorized
to the grave with them, never to be recited again.
2. It was these same reciters i.e., M asud, Kabb etc., who were writing down codices from memory which led to
contradictions, additions, omissions and to thousands of variant readings among the competing texts. This
demonstrates the faulty memories of the reciters.

1. The Qur'an was not compiled perfectly.
2. M uch of the Qur'an’s contents are missing.
3. M ore than one Qur'an was in circulation.
4. Primary eyewitness codices were burned.
5. On the authority of one man an official text of the Qur'an was approved.
6. Even this official codex was eventually destroyed and eleven revisions were made of it.
7. Thousands of variants existed between these competing texts as documented by Arthur Jeffrey’s book, which in turn cites Abi Dawud’s own work.


570 The Birth of M uhammad

7th Century
610 The Call to Prophethood.
632 Death of Muhammad.
650 Uthman Made Caliph.
691 Dome of Rock Sieged.

8th Century
700 Legends and myths are recorded in order to elevate
Muhammad of history into the Muhammad of traditions.

9th Century
800 Nearly 700,000 traditions compiled.
850 Imam Bukhari collects and compiles traditions.

10th Century
923 Al-Tabari’s Commentary.

SO HISTORICALLY WE HAVE NO DATA FOR 200YEARS OF MUHAMAD. SO LET TRUTH SPEAK ITS OWN.
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