Hubbard Robin:Truthnet:Rodwell Translation of Quran
truthnet.org
2 The Cow 3 Family of Imran 4 Women 5 The Table 6 Cattle 7 Al Araf 8 The Spoils 9 Immunity 10 Jonah, PUBH 11 Houd 12 Joseph, PUBH 13 Thunder 14 Abraham, PUBH 15 Hedjr 16 The Bee 17 The Night Journey 18 The Cave 19 Mary 20 TA. HA 21 The Prophets 22 The Pilgrimage 23 The Believers 24 Light 25 Al Furkan 26 The Poets



Saaib Ahmed:
 Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an

Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.

Charles D Jones: 
Saaib, youre a man of intellect. Would you please in your own words, describe to us the moral and ethical lessons one learns from Muhammed's legacy and in what way that enriches oneself and others in todays world of conflict. In summation, does the life of Muhammed bode better for humanity as a whole living together in comparable unison, able to bring about betterment for the community. In short, can you say, I Muhammed, come to give you, blank, and I leave you with, blank?

Saaib Ahmed: 
If I give u my inferences or what i deduce, it will be illogical. I am a muslim and i will always utter words out of love for such a great personality.... But when such comments are passed on to our prophet by an outsider, it carrys weight.... His life is an example for you to follow.
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.""A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."

"The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab."

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul."If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.
"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

I can continue on and on and on.... It wont matter though....

Charles D Jones: 
You say he had no army, yet he founded twenty empires. Did he do this selling his ability to darn his own clothes? I dont see a simple home life in conquering vast amounts of the world through bloodshed.

Saaib Ahmed: The above quotes are not mine but "non muslim scholars'' and in particular christions..... And the blood shed which u r talking about is a joke.... Read my discussion with John Mcguire on my blog www.apyem.blogspot.com...... U will come to know a bit about it.....

A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.

De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.

James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God".''

Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.

K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.

I am not debating u...... Nor will I...
Facebook is not for debating.... If it is, it is only for insulting.... Come to kashmir and have a discussion with me.... Dont read stuff from answering islam, islam watch of faithfreedom.... What they spread is not knowledge but hate.... Dont even visit answering christianity or answering faithfreedom or any other site, they are doing the same job.... Get Muhammad's (pbuh) biography and read it for your own.... You need it in both case... If u love him u will love his biography... If u hate him ur faith will get stronger.... Marting lings, watt, karen armstrong are christians who have written some biographies.... I dont agee to 100% of what they write but for a non muslim they can be helpful.....
Charles D Jones: 
Saaib, I suppose that if one has only known violence then one could suppose that it is peace, or I could just say that your are either delusional in your belief of who Muhammed was and what he did, or you have no knowledge of Muhammed. I think it is delusion, not forced on you, but one in which you have chosen to hide in. When you quote no compulsion, please quote in in full context. The aim of Islam is submission by all to Islam, whether willingly or unwillingly, therefore, there most certainly is compulsion. If you disagree with these sites, do with them as you have others and start your own in hopes of having them disbanded. You have that free right, since there is no compulsion in religion. There is much compulsion on the tip of a bloodstained sword.
Saaib Ahmed: 
I have already debunked the argument u produced now...... I didnt quote a single muslim author..... There was a person named Gandhi who revolutionized non-violence.... In his memory the world celebrates international non violence day..... It wd be nice for you to know what he had to say.....

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

As long as u stay rational.... As long as u stay logical.... As long as u stay unbiased, you would love that personality....

Charles D Jones: 
You have not debunked anything. You have sprinkled powered sugar on top of cow manure to make it look as if its chocolate. There is just as much compulsion on the tip of a lying tongue, you just use a different weapon.

Saaib Ahmed: 
The sword of intellect. Thats what Muhammad (pbuh) used.... Thats what i am using.... Why r u full of hate.... It will never help u....



Charles D Jones: 
Yes, and someone will die in the world today by the sword of Islam for lack thereof.

Saaib Ahmed: 

The east coast of Africa is muslim dominated....... I ask which muslim army went there.... Indonesia????? Which muslim army??????
We ruled India for thousands of years but on partition we got one forth..... Because we didnt do any compultion.... If we wd have used any force for 1000 yrs, economical even, there wouldn't have been a single hindu left in india... Yet there are 80% hindus.... I ask which sword....
We ruled spain for almost 1000 years yet dominated by christians.... Which sword.... I ask which sword?...... Today the world super power USA has a problem, islam is the fastest growing... Which sword..... England, france, russia...... Talk abt the super powers, Islam is the fastest growing... I ask which sword.... Sword of intellect....

Charles D Jones: 

The only blood spilled in the name and by the teachings of Jesus, was His blood. The rest have been by the teachings of man. The sword of deception Saaib, that is how it is spread, brute force or deception. Again, turn the news on today, and somewhere in the world today, blood will be shed in the name of Islam. You are very delusional or very deceptive? Which title do you ascribe to? AIDS was also at one time the fastest spreading disease, yet one cannot say it has profited the world in anyway.

Saaib Ahmed: 

People are using islam fr their own material gains.... Dont judge us by these things.... As much we have bas muslims, u have bad Christians and the bad christians u hav will put bad muslims to shame.... It doesnt matter.... When christians followed their religion they were murderers... They didnt allow any criticism.... They wr the most backward ppl.... Newton didnt publish his book on bible becaz of ua priests.... Galileo, copernicus.... Same fate.... But wt about our civilisation.... We built universities, hospitals.... Collected world knowledge.... Did lakhs of translation.... U left your religious teachings u flourished, ua scientists did miracles.... We left our religious teachings we got ruined,..... We r criticised today because we r not doing our job..... U r not criticised because u r not doing ua job.... We do our job, ppl will luv us.... U do ua job, world will hate u..... God has made his religion and it will supercede all other isms......

Charles D Jones: 

We are doing our job, we are dying because of following the teachings of Jesus and you are doing your job that people are dying for you following the teachings of Islam. Jesus said I come that you might have life and have it more abundantly, what did Muhammed come for? I criticize and hate death and evil, your political system masquerading as religion flourishes by it. The world has no need nor want for Christianity because if offers no wealth of the world nor need for the military powers of the world. Yours does both, therefore, as long as the world seeks riches and death, there will be Islam. Chistianity is based on the death of Christ who submitted to the will of the Father, Islam is based on the death of all who will not submit to Islam. One life verses how many to date for Islam?

Saaib Ahmed: 

if your religion doesnt teach you political well being of a society, your religion is incomplete. Islam is a complete religion... It teaches you everything.... From how to eat food to how to cook it.... It teaches you how to run a house hold to how to run a country.... And if your religion doesnt tell me that i should cut my nails (which it doesnt, in my knowledge) no need to follow it.... If it doesnt tell me what is better for me in every field of life, it is an incomplete religion and doesnt suit a complete society.... If it doesnt show me how to defend or how to attack or how to do business it need be followed.... For a businessman his religion should give him guidelines for it... For a warrior it should have guidelines for him.. For every problem it should have a solution.... Doesnt matter what the solution is, will discuss it later. But the solution should be there... Islam deals with main topics addresed by secular law, including crime, politics and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexuality, hygiene, diet, prayer and fasting... One of our contribution to your western law, was the legal procedure. Until the crusades, legal procedure of west often consisted of "god's judgements" by boiling water or by duel. By contrast, our law decided on the basis of proof and allowed defendents to express freely, a practice widely used since first caliph. All of our laws were transmitted to europe via louis 9th, who instituted several reforms after returning from crusades. Whatever good west has is in contradiction with actual christianity... Don't fool yourself... Read for knowledge not criticism.. May God help you and me both...

Charles D Jones: 

Its very complete, Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. We seek a heavenly kingdom, Islam seeks a kingdom on earth. Matthew 4:8-10. Jesus denied these things, Muhammed wanted them. Judge you if your religion is complete.

Saaib Ahmed: 

If the kingdom is heavenly.... Why did god send us here.... What did so many prophets come for... To play hide and seek.. No, they came to show the right path to the people. To build a society... All biblical prophets failed while Muhammad (pbuh) was successful.. Moses (pbuh) was successful to a certain level... If your kingdom is heavenly, what for did jesus have disciples.. Why did he tell him to go to the lost sheep of israel. Why are you fighting for law and order today if it will be in the heaven. Tell me which laws.... Your religion is incomplete because it doesnt touch all aspects of life. At least, cutting of nails is not discussed in your religion.... While it is in ours.... What for are your scriptures... Our religion teaches us how to have a better life here and in the hereafter while your religion is a failure.. And the absurd point you made here was Muhammad (pbuh) wanted an earthly kingdom. Had you read some history books you wouldn't have said it. Every historian has recorded on of the famous statement he had made to his uncle... When the pagan arabs came to his uncle and told him that we will make Muhammad pbuh king of arabia and we will give him keys to kaaba and other material things if he stored his monotheistic teching. Muhammad pbuh replied,"i wont stop spreading this message even if they put sun in my right hand and moon in my left"... Watt, karen Armstrong, gibbon, lings etc all have recorded this famous statement. Moreover his life before prophet-hood was better materialistically that afterwards. He fasted for months all together. The problem is that you don't read my comments completely.

Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."
"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'

He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.
His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.

Charles D Jones: 

You seek heaven on earth Saaib, so you will be rewarded with what you seek. You have your reward in full.

Saaib Ahmed: 

We seek heaven here and by having it here by god's will we will have it there also, if only god wills..... God doesnt have a limited stock.. He can afford "two" heavens........ Certain things are good and certain things are bad. I am not discussing what is good or what is bad. But you will have to accept that some things are good and some are bad. The bad need to be shun and the good need to be followed even in this world. Going by your logic, we dont need to shun or accept anything. We will shun bad things in the hereafter and accepts good things hereafter. Our logic says we will shun bad things here and in hereafter and we will accept good things here and hereafter.... Let you choose which one is better..:)




End of Part One. Next Part will be published soon after editing.





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1 Response to "A discussion between a couple of Christians (Charles De Jones) and Saaib Ahmed (edited version)"

  1. Anonymous Said,

    charles jones will not learn. He is prepared to attack islam wrongly. He is like one of the pastors around here who benefits immensely from deceiving people with miracle or magic work in the name of jesus. Almost all our pastor here in nigeria have their private jets. Some of them die in hotel with wives of church members. I hate to see them defending d falsehood they call xtianity.charles jones will not learn. He is prepared to attack islam wrongly. He is like one of the pastors around here who benefits immensely from deceiving people with miracle or magic work in the name of jesus. Almost all our pastor here in nigeria have their private jets. Some of them die in hotel with wives of church members. I hate to see them defending d falsehood they call xtianity.

    Posted on 3 September 2011 at 03:13

     

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